At that Time... Chapter 3

Chapter 3
Pre-Tribulation
Media-Persia and Greece


Daniel chapter 11 is the most detailed of all the visions, so it will be useful as a chronological base, as we thread to all the other passages and visions. All the events in this chapter happen before the tribulation ever begins.

Da 11:2 ‘Now then, I tell you the truth: Three more kings will appear in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece.

At some point in time, whether it has already begun or will begin in the future, there will be three more kings that arise in Persia and right after them a fourth king of Persia will arise. The fourth king of Persia is also known as the king of the South. Why I say that the king of the South is the king of Persia and not the kings of Media-Persia throughout the rest of the book, is that Scripture starts talking about three more kings will arise in Persia and not from Media. Media and Persia in today’s times is Iran, Media is the northern part of Iran and Persia is the southern part of Iran. The red line across the middle of Iran in no wise is a determination where the actual boundary between Media and Persia will be.


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Da 11:2 Now then, I tell you the truth: Three more kings will appear in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece.

The king of Persia is the king of the South before the king of Media arises and takes over part of the king of the South’s country. Scripture specifically says that the fourth king of Persia and not Media will stir up everyone against the king of the North, which we find later in this section the king of the South doing. The king of the South will not start out extremely rich or powerful. He has wealth but when he becomes far richer than the previous three rulers of Persia he builds up his military might, but he makes a critical error is his military appointments.


Da 11:5 The king of the South will become strong, but one of his commanders will become even stronger than he and will rule his own kingdom with feat power.

Da 11:6a After some years, they will become allies.

The king of the South gains power by his wealth but one of his commanders gets a strong hold on the military, either by a coupe or a political division of some kind and Persia is divided into two countries. Then the two kings of Media and Persia make an alliance and a plan to conquer and rule the Middle East, which they accomplish.

Da 8:4a I watched the ram as he charged toward the west…

The ram charges all the way to Egypt. Why I say that is; when the king of the South attacks Greece (Daniel 11:8), the king of Persia takes the treasure of Greece to Egypt.

The king of Persia would not take treasure to Egypt unless he had already conquered it and made it part of his kingdom. This shows the total control and surety of this Persian king. He is not just a king of Persia ruling over Egypt and other Middle East countries, for then he would take and try to horde all the wealth in Persia, but he has such a firm and confident grip on Egypt (and on himself) that he is king of all his lands, and rules in such magnitude and totality, that he takes the treasure from Greece to Egypt.


But what countries do the kings of Media and Persia take on their way west to Egypt? If, you draw a straight line from Tehran, the capital of Iran, (which at that time, will most likely be located in Media) to Cairo, the capital of Egypt, the line will cross Iraq, Jordan, Israel and Egypt (See map below). The question of most importance is: Does Israel get taken at that time? The answer is; well, let’s see. To start off with I would like to look at Daniel 11:16


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Da 11:16 The invader (the king of Greece) will do as he pleases; no one will be able to stand against him. He will establish himself in the Beautiful Land and will have the power to destroy it.

This verse does not say that the king of Greece destroys Israel. It says that he will establish himself in Israel and will have power to destroy it, showing Israel’s complete helplessness against the king of Greece. What about the kingdom of Media-Persia, do they conquer Israel before the king of Greece conquers it? 1) It would be nearly impossible for Media-Persia to wage a land war all the way to Egypt without first taking Israel, for Israel blocks the land bridge to Africa, but Media-Persia could take Egypt by sea and air. 2) Daniel 8:4 says, no animal could stand against the ram of Media-Persia and Israel is one of the animals referred to by “no animals”. None in the entire world could rescue from the power of the two horned ram

Da 8:4 I watched the ram as he charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against him, and none could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.

Not only does Media-Persia conquer all the way to Egypt, but also fills out its domination to the north and south. Media-Persia probably takes Assyria, Turkey, and Lebanon to the north; Iraq and Saudi Arabia to the south, and maybe some of the African kingdoms south of Egypt. The greatness and the power of this kingdom will be unstoppable. “No animal” in Australia, Asia, Europe, North America or South America, will be able to stand against the Media-Persian Empire. And no animal may want to try to stop the conquest of the Middle East, for the region may have a so-called peace, as the world may see it. The Israeli question is finally resolved, so they may think.

There is also an interesting correlation between Isaiah 22:3, 6 and Revelation 6:2, the rider on a white horse who held a bow and was a conqueror bent of conquest. Look at Isaiah 22:3, 6 and Revelation 6:2.

Isa 22:3 All your leaders have fled together; they have been captured without using the bow. All you who were caught were taken prisoner together, having fled while the enemy was still far away.

Isa 22:6 Elam takes up the quiver, with her charioteers and horses; Kir uncovers the shield.

Rev 6:2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Both of these passages refer to this bow that the King of Persia holds.
The King of Persia will not have to wage a major battle or sieges to conquer Israel. Israel’s leaders see Persia coming and they scatter and flee. The country of Israel will be taken with no problems. Look at Isaiah 22:8 “the defenses of Judah are stripped away.” This gives insight into the helplessness of Israel from that time till the end of the tribulation. It seems that the leaders of Israel have become so soft and corrupt, that at the first sign of a battle by a major world power they panic and flee, but are captured none the less. Some in Jerusalem will see the King of Persia advancing and try to hole themselves in the city of Jerusalem. They try to fortify it but they know it is of no hope and they say “let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die.” But they forgot that they are in the city of the LORD Almighty, they forget the LORD, and the LORD was right there waiting for them to repent, but they must have decided to die was better then repentance.


This map shows Media-Persia moving all the way west to Egypt.


(Click on map to view enlarged image)

Let us learn a lesson from this event. When God comes to us personally to chastise and discipline us in major ways, let us fall upon our knees and weep and wail and rend our hearts and beg the forgiveness of God. Let us hope in his mercy rather than to despair unto death and do evil and give up. But I recommend instead of this let us repent and surrender all unto our LORD now, in faith and love, let us search Him with all are hearts, mind, strength and soul, and trust him to reveal Himself to us.

“For unless God reveals, He remains concealed.” (Poj)

Whatever the strength of Israelites is at the time of the Persian invasion, it will all be for nothing, for the leaders will panic and flee. The country will be taken and the defenses of Israel will be stripped, and most likely assimilated into the military might of Persia.

Media-Persia may at first take over Iraq, which will later be called Babylon. Depending on the world political arena, no one may say anything about Media-Persia taking Iraq. The world may try to resolve Iran (Media-Persia) taking Iraq by political means, imposing sanctions and/or may not want to do anything militarily, while Iran establishes itself in Iraq.


(Click on map to view enlarged image)

Once Media-Persia establishes itself in Iraq, they will move west, probably through Jordan to get to Israel. Syria may, if it still is allies with Media-Persia (Iran), may set up military distractions to pull the armed forces of these countries to the north, while Jordan and Israel are looking north Media-Persia attacks from the east. Prophecy proclaims is that Media-Persia takes Egypt and Israel and conquers unrevealed countries on its way west. How Media-Persia military takes all the countries to the west is conjecture.

Then the two-horned ram (Media-Persia) moves to the north.

Da 8:4 I watched the ram as he charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against him, and none could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.

Media-Persia probably takes Syria and Lebanon.


(Click on map to view enlarged image)

When Daniel says that Media-Persia moves then to the north, the possibilities are that Media-Persia move north anywhere along their now new northern border. Later we will show that Greece takes a lot of coastal cities after it militarily forces Media-Persia back into Iran. Therefore, it is most likely Media-Persia takes Syria and Lebanon on its way north. The red arrows in the map below show where Media-Persia will most likely move north. The orange arrows show where they possibly could move north.


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The map below shows where the probably boundaries for Media-Persia are located after it moves north.


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Then Media-Persia moves to the south.

Da 8:4 I watched the ram as he charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against him, and none could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.

In the map below; the red arrows are where Media-Persia most likely attacks, the brown arrows are where the probably attack, and the orange arrows are where they may also attack.


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The map below is probably the boarder of Media-Persia when the king of Greece starts attacking it.

Da 8:5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat (Greece) with a prominent horn between his eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground.



With the four horseman of the apocalypse, the interesting thing is that the first rider on white horse is given a bow, so that may mean that Iran comes into a new missile technology, for it is given a bow. The second horse of the apocalypse, Greece is given a sword and also in Daniel it attacks Media-Persia from the west without touching the ground. This could be a new military tactic of attacking Media-Persia from the air and shatters it and then takes many of the coastlands with his ground forces; the sword.

The map below is the probable boundary of Greece after it runs Media-Persia back into Iran.


(Click on map to view enlarged image)


By the time of Daniel 11:8, Egypt is conquered by Persia, because the King of the South (the King of Persia) takes the treasures of the King of the North (the King of Greece) to Egypt. The King of Persia must have by this verse conquered Egypt. Let’s make the assumption that Israel is conquered before Egypt is conquered. Why? Because: for the Persian forces to attack Egypt by land, they would have to go through Israel. The important question here is how long is Israel is subjected to Persia. Look at the last part of verse 8 after it mentions Egypt.

Da 11:8 He will also seize their gods, their metal images and their valuable articles of silver and gold and carry them off to Egypt. For some years he will leave the king of the North alone.

“For some years he (the King of Persia) will leave the King of the North alone.” Here we have a statement of “some years’ and if we take this to be a minimum of two years, it probably be more than two years (Why I go for the minimum is to work on the minimum this timeline takes to happen) then in verses 13-14 we have a time reference of “several years”.

Da 11:13 For the king of the North will muster another army, larger than the first; and after several years, he will advance with a huge army fully equipped.
Da 11:14 “In those times many will rise against the king of the South. The violent men among your own people will rebel in fulfillment of the vision, but without success.

Here in Daniel 11:13 we have the third and last time reference to “years” but this one says “several years” instead of “some years.” If you took “several years” to be a minimum of three years, plus the two years from the other mention of “some years” in the pervious passage, we have a total minimum of five years that Persia has dominion over Israel, and this is using just these two references to years, it actually could and will be probably will be longer than five years that Persia has dominion over Israel.

We have talked about the King of Persia taking Israel, I would now like to continue on with Persia and Persia’s interactions with Greece, starting back at Daniel 11:6 where we left off to figure out that Israel will be taken by the Media-Persians.

Da 11:6 After some years, they will become allies. The daughter of the king of the South will go to the king of the North to make an alliance, but she will not retain her power, and he and his power will not last. In those days she will be handed over, together with her royal escort and her father and the one who supported her.

This passage seems very ambiguous but it does let us in on some interesting suppositions. 1) Is the age of the king of Persia at that time; he is probably 40 to 55 years old. Why do I say that? The king has a daughter who is mature enough to be an ambassador. So if he had his daughter when he was twenty and she had his grandchild when she was twenty, then that would make him at least 40 years old, and the child is still young enough to take on diplomatic mission, not that a child would ever be to old.

Supposition two: this is what Persia uses to stir everyone up against Greece. The daughter of the king of the South goes on a diplomatic mission to Greece and it appears that her royal escort, and her child, who could be the future king of Persia, are held against their will in Greece. This action of detaining the daughter of the king of Persia is taken as an act of war.

Da 11:7 “One from her family line will arise to take her place. He will attack the forces of the king of the North and enter his fortress; he will fight against them and be victorious.

This Scripture says, one from the line of the princess of Persia takes her place, but what was her place? She was a diplomat, not a commander, the ‘he” at the beginning of the second sentence of verse 7 is not talking about the person who takes the place of the princess of Persia. The “he” in verse 7 is speaking of the king of the South. If you take the context of the passage from verse 7 to verse 11 we can see that in verse 11 the king of the South is the leader of the armies of Persia. So, if we start in verse 11 and backtrack to verse 7 the two primary participants are the king of the North and the king of the South. Maybe you can see what I mean if I show you how I see the verses. I am going to leave out the numerical verse indicators, and take out the paragraph divisions, and add a parenthesis to highlight the structure of the text. Got all that? Don’t worry.

Daniel 11:5-9 The king of the South will become strong, but one of his commanders will become even stronger than he and will rule his own kingdom with great power. After some years, they will become allies. The daughter of the king of the South will go to the king of the North to make an alliance, but she will not retain her power, and he (the king of the North, Greece) and his power will not last. In those days she will be handed over, together with her royal escort and her child and the one who supported her. One from her family line will arise to take her place. He (the king of the South) will attack the forces of the king of the North and enter his fortress; he will fight against them and be victorious. He will also seize their gods, their metal images and their valuable articles of silver and gold and carry them off to Egypt. For some years he will leave the king of the North alone. Then the king of the North will invade the realm of the king of the South but will retreat to his own country.

As I understand the text it appears that the king of Greece retains the princess of Persia. ‘One from her family line” takes her position as ambassador and then the king of Persia attacks the king of Greece, because of the king of Greece taking hostage the princess of Persia. Then the king of Persia enters the fortress of the king of Greece, this is probably where the princess is held. He is victorious and frees the princess. Plus, he gets quite a reward of silver and gold, is appeased, and leaves the king of Greece alone. For, the king of Persia’s goal was not to conquer Greece but to release the princess. This is another reason why I say that Persia conquers Turkey. After the ram conquers to the west, Scripture says that the ram charges to the north. This ambassadorial mission by the Princes of Persia may be to reassure Greece that it has no intentions of crossing the Aegean Sea to attack them.

At this time I would like to introduce you to the king of Greece; the king of the North. He is the belly and thighs of bronze in Daniel 2. The second beast of Daniel 7 that looks like a bear raised up on one side with three ribs in his mouth. He is the goat in Daniel 8. The first king of the north in Daniel 11:2-20 and he is the rider on the fiery red horse of Revelation 6 who was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other, to him was given a large sword.

Da 11:3 Then a mighty king will appear, who will rule with great power and do as he pleases.

This mighty king of Greece does not start off so mighty, and has three recorded failures at the beginning of his reign. First, as we have already discussed he detains the Princess of Persia and suffers a defeat by the king of the South entering his fortress and freeing the princess. Then in verse 9 it is stated.

Da 11:9 Then the king of the North will invade the realm of the king of the South but will retreat to his own country.

The king of Greece invades the realm of the king of Persia but retreats. This is the second defeat. Then...

Da 11:10 His sons will prepare for war and assemble a great army, which will sweep on like an irresistible flood and carry the battle as far as his fortress.
Da 11:11 “Then the king of the South will march out in a rage and fight against the king of the North, who will raise a large army, but it will be defeated.
Da 11:12 When the army is carried off...

This is the king of Greece’s third defeat. This is why the king of Greece becomes a mighty king. To persevere after failure is to become strong... if it doesn’t kill you first. The king of Greece is the aggressor against Persia all three times, true to second rider of Revelation 6. He is given a large sword and he is the reason why men slay each other and peace is taken from the earth. Then…


Da 11:13 … the king of the North (Greece) will muster another army, larger than the first; and after several years, he will advance with a huge army fully equipped.
Da 11:15 Then the king of the North will come and build up siege ramps and will capture a fortified city. The forces of the South will be powerless to resist; even their best troops will not have the strength to stand.

Daniel 8 also talks about that event, Daniel 8:5

Da 8:5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat (Greece) with a prominent horn between his eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground.
Da 8:6 He came toward the two-horned ram (Media-Persia) I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at him in great rage.
Da 8:7 I saw him attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering his two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against him; the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him, and none could rescue the ram from his power.

First, the king of Greece detains the princess of Persia, and then he attacks Persia two times and loses. I have to say one thing about the king of Greece, he is determined. Even though the king of Greece shatters the two horns of Media- Persia he is still not able to overthrow the kingdom of Persia, for…


Da 11:17 He will determine to come with the might of his entire kingdom and will make an alliance with the king of the South. And he will give him a daughter in marriage in order to overthrow the kingdom, but his plans will not succeed or help him.

The king of Greece invades the realm of the king of the South and shatters the rule of Media-Persia, but is unable to fully destroy the king of the South. So, he tries to defeat the king by intrigue but fails. Then the king of the North (Greece) makes an alliance with the king of the South (Persia). The king of the North then turns his attention to the coastlands and will take many of them.

Da 11:18 Then he will turn his attention to the coastlands and will take many of them, but a commander will put an end to his insolence and will turn his insolence back upon him.

Here in the last part of this verse we come to one of those interesting ambiguous statements, “but a commander will put an end to his insolence and will turn his insolence back upon him.” A commander of the king of Greece does something to stop the insolence of this king, either by tact, wisdom or craftiness and turns the insolence of the king of Greece back on him. This seems to stop the whole military campaign, because the king of Greece turns and goes home.

Da 11:19 After this, he will turn back toward the fortresses of his own country but will stumble and fall, to be seen no more.

Da 8:8 The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

The king of Greece turns to head home and probably dies, Out of his empire emerges four kingdoms, but what are these four prominent kingdoms? One is most probably Greece itself and two of the others could be Israel and Babylon but that is conjecture. One of them has to be the antichrist’s kingdom, for the antichrist comes out of one of the four horns.

Da 8:9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land.
Da 8:10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them.

There is probably much confusion and anxiety at the beginning of the reign of the four kingdoms, right after the king of Greece, the king of the North is seen no more. At this point I would like to look at three statements in Daniel 11:6, 8 and 13, they have to do with statements of years.

Da 11:6 After some years, they will become allies. The daughter of the king of the South will go to the king of the North to make an alliance, but she will not retain her power, and he and his power will not last. In those days she will be handed over, together with her royal escort and her father and the one who supported her.

Da 11:8 He will also seize their gods, their metal images and their valuable articles of silver and gold and carry them off to Egypt. For some years he will leave the king of the North alone.

Da 11:13 For the king of the North will muster another army, larger than the first; and after several years, he will advance with a huge army fully equipped.

Here we have three references to years. In Daniel 11:6 and 8 we have two references to ‘some years’ and in Daniel 11:13 we have a reference to ‘several years’. Now, to find a time frame or a length of time for these references, lets just say that the minimum length of time for ‘some years’ is two years, and the minimum length of time for ‘several years’ is three years. We then have a minimum of seven years from verse 6 to verse 13. This does not include all the other events that happen in-between verses 6 and 13. It does not include all the time from verse 1 to 5 and from 14 to 20. Why, I take it to verse 20 is because in verse 21 we have the first mention of the antichrist and his rise to power. If you read Daniel 11:1-21 and look at all the events, we have a minimum of seven years just from the three time references, plus then you have to add in the length of time for all the other events to happen. From the time that the fourth king of Persia arises and he losses part of his kingdom in verse 5 up until verse 21, we have anywhere from a minimum of 7 years up to 60 years before the tribulation even begins. Let me say that again, from the time that the forth king of Persia arises and he losses part of his kingdom in verse 5 up until verse 21, we have anywhere from a minimum of 7 years to 60 years before the tribulation even begins.
What this means to us is that once these prophecies start in verse 5 there will be at least 7 years up unto 6o or so years, till the tribulation begins.

Selah

Now, the four horns that arise out of the fallen Greece are the four prominent horns of Daniel 8, the leopard with four wings of Daniel 7, and the black horse of the Apocalypse,

Da 8:8 The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

Da 8:22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

Da 7:6 “After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.

Rev 6:5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse. Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a day’s wages, and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!”

There is not much said about the four kingdoms. No acts of warfare, no weapons are attributed to them, and they are not mentioned as one of the ruling powers in the vision of Daniel 2. In fact it states in Daniel 8:22 that they will not have the same power as the former king of Greece. Is this the time everyone is saying, as Jesus mentioned “Peace and safety and then the end will come.” For it is just before the time of the antichrist. The only time reference we have between the time the king of Greece falls and the reign of the antichrist is in Daniel 11:20.

Da 11:20 “His successor will send out a tax collector to maintain the royal splendor. In a few years, however, he will be destroyed, yet not in anger or in battle.

This time reference is under some debate by scholars. It could be a ‘few days’ or a ‘few years,’ so take it as you will, or wait and see if it is a few years or days.

In verse 21 we have the first introduction of the antichrist. I wish to stop here and summarize what we have understood so far and what it means to us. Scripture definitely states that texts concerning Media-Persia and Greece are end time prophecies. What we are looking for next is for there to be a division of Iran into two countries, Media and Persia, then they will come to an agreement and take most of the Middle East, including Israel. When this happens we will know that the end is near. How long it will take for Greece to militarily force the armies of Media- Persia (Iran) to retreat to their own countries, for Greece to fall, for the four kingdoms to grow up towards the four winds of heaven, and then for the antichrist to arise? Scripture does not tell us, but, we know that it has to be at least seven years before the antichrist ever arises, though it probably will be 20 to 60 years. In that period we will have the rise of Media-Persia, the wars between Greece and Media-Persia, the fall of Greece, and the probable considerable amount of time for the four kingdoms to grow up towards the four winds of heaven. During the rise of the four kingdoms it may seem to be a very peaceful time, but it will not last too long because the King of the South who starts off with the division of his country of Iran in verse 5 will be the same King of the South who attacks the antichrist in verse 40. Jesus said in Matthew chapter 24: 6-8; 32-35:

Mt 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
Mt 24:7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
Mt 24:8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Mt 24:32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
Mt 24:33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
Mt 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass
away.